• Cardio on an empty stomach in the morning

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    • #2343

      str8flexed
      Member

      [url=”http://www.cuttingedgemuscle.com/Forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=2822″]http://www.cuttingedgemuscle.com/Forum/sho…=&threadid=2822[/url]

      you would think doing cardio in the morning on an empty stomach was a religion considering the way my answer was received. Does anyone have any commentary?

      #94415

      nightop
      Member

      I have been looking into this recently and posted on that thread just now… don’t know if what I said is correct or useful, but hopefully we can methodicaly and scientifically look at the argument and come out with a useable conclusion…. although the morning cardio seems to be a major dogmatic cornerstone in the community.

      #94421

      Tkarrde
      Member

      I see little benefit to morning cardio; it seems, as Nightop mentions, one of the foolish old wives’ tales circling about this moronic subculture . I could not physically handle, or put quality effort into, a HIIT session upon waking when on a diet.

      Simply ensure your cardio session is performed with some time having passed since last you ate.

      #94562

      Gene
      Member

      1. Wake up.

      2. Whey protein shake.

      3. Do cardio.

      #94569

      str8flexed
      Member

      1. Wake up.

      2. Whey protein shake.

      3. Do cardio.

      But will the whey protein shake do anything to counteract high cortisol levels? In addition… I think some carbs are almost essential for anyone participating in high intensity cardio.

      #94587

      Gene
      Member

      Protein triggers insulin release. Insulin is suppressive to glucagon and cortisol, but you may remain in a carb-deprived state if amino acid oxidation is to a minimum. I don’t remember what takes priority, the oxidation for glucose or the nitrogen retention requirements; I surmise it would be split ideally.

      #94589

      Iam a fan of HIIT. I know from what i’ve read that doing cardio in the morning on an empty stomach can be catabolic. For the past awhile now i’ve dont an abrivated form of HIIT where I went from 253 to the 220’s. I also increased my strength a great deal even with the great amount of weight loss, where I would also do it on a full stomach.

      Kc

      #94599

      str8flexed
      Member

      Protein triggers insulin release. Insulin is suppressive to glucagon and cortisol, but you may remain in a carb-deprived state if amino acid oxidation is to a minimum. I don’t remember what takes priority, the oxidation for glucose or the nitrogen retention requirements; I surmise it would be split ideally.

      I think the rates of oxidation would be dependant upon what you are doing. If you wake up and have a protein source and sit on your ass I would think (if you are a lifter) a considerable amount of this may go towards nitrogen retention purposes… however if you have a shake then go out and do 20 minutes of HIIT cardio I would think your body would adjust by increasing it’s rates of amino acid oxidation.

      Peace

      #94609

      Gene
      Member

      That’s plausible. Would you agree, though, that protein-alone is better than nothing? At least you’d have amino acids available in the blood stream, used for whatever purposes the body deems necessary.

      #94611

      I can see the point of taking portein in the morning as you wake up. Most of your repairing and growing takes place when you sleep durin the night. So really you have been fasting for several hrs and your body would need the protien to help it more.

      If I am not mistaken Insuline levels are at the lowest during the time you wake up and increase throughout the day. Cant whey increase insuline? I think you have a 35-45min window after training when insuline levels would be the highest and during this time insuline needs whey to replenish glycogen levels and promote protein into muscle cells to help them repair and grow.

      Sorry if I say anything off.. Iam still new to studying nutrition but helping to learn from the people on this site.

      Kc

      #94613

      str8flexed
      Member

      That’s plausible. Would you agree, though, that protein-alone is better than nothing? At least you’d have amino acids available in the blood stream, used for whatever purposes the body deems necessary.

      Oh, I most definately agree. But I think protein+carbs would be MUCH better. Carbs are going to have a more muscle sparing effect than dietary protein in a situation like this as they can be used as substrate more easily (is this the word I’m looking for????) than protein. But I believe ingestation of both will have the best effect. Carbs can be used as substrate… protein will be spared for nitrogen retention purposes, amino acid rates will be reduced. I look at it this way… even if you don’t “burn as much adipose tissue DURING” cardio your going to burn more later b/c the carbs you ingest will be oxidized… lowering your glycogen stores and this will kick your ketogenic metabolism into gear later in the day where your body will be under less stress and amino acid oxidation rates will be lower… thus at this time you’ll get a better fat burning effect (this is all in theory of course). Not to mention high intensity cardio elevates your metabolism for hours… even days after performing it so your metabolism will still be jacked when your ketogenic metabolism takes over.

      Peace

      #94655

      dawza
      Member

      I was always under the impression that protein w/o CHO stimulated glucagon release, and that even individual AA alone are poor insulin secretagogues. How is whey different, unless it is being so rapidly converted to glucose that it indirectly causes insulin secretion (in which case, CHO alone would accomplish the same effect)? Str8- I agree, a fast-digesting protein is undoubtably better than nothing, but CHO + whey would be more beneficial in terms of sparing protein use during cardio.

      I have some papers that I have yet to read that suggest glycogen replenishment utilizes primarily fat for energy (note that I say energy, and not for actual substrate for glycogen). This, along with increased post-exercise thermogenisis with HIIT, would provide further support for high-intensity cardio having, in the end, results that are similar to low-intensity, higher-duration cardio in terms of total calories burned. Granted, one would also expect increased AA oxidation, but if performed at sufficiently high intensity, there may actually be some stimulus for enhanced protein synthesis post-exercise far beyond what low-intensity cardio could offer.

      #94709

      Gene
      Member

      Carbs shut down lipolysis, which is highest when insulin and glycogen stores are low. Protein produces little insulin, but increases amino acid availability, essentially preventing catabolism (by supplying substrate for gluconeogenic pathways) all the while preserving fat mobilization. The increase in protein oxidation is not a bad thing per se, because this what spares muscle catabolism.

      My suggestion for protein-only stands.

      Reference: [url=”http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=12169450&dopt=Abstract”]http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.f…0&dopt=Abstract[/url]

      #94735

      nightop
      Member

      …Protein produces little insulin, but increases amino acid availability, essentially preventing catabolism (by supplying substrate for gluconeogenic pathways) all the while preserving fat mobilization. The increase in protein oxidation is not a bad thing per se, because this what spares muscle catabolism.

      My suggestion for protein-only stands.

      Reference: [url=”http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=12169450&dopt=Abstract”]http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.f…0&dopt=Abstract[/url]

      This would be similiar to what occurs when on a typical keto diet (at least initially rather, until the protein sparing adaptations are more developed) on the larger scale.

      What I’m wondering is if the use of slower-digesting protein would have any benefit in place of whey for pre- morning cardio?

      #94743

      Ironfiend54
      Member

      I think of even more benefit would be a small serving of BCAA’s and glutamine. The BCAA’s are more likely to be used as substrate and are anti catabolic/ananabolic in and of themseleves. .The glutamine would most definitely be used as fuel I believe and the insulin release wouldn’t be too high….

      Mike

      #94749

      str8flexed
      Member

      Ok Gene I see your point however. However the body is a very “smart animal” so to speak. I would think that if it raised it’s rates of amino acid oxidation it would not only draw from the amino “pool” but it would also draw from muscle tissue… the body likes to use multiple sources at once… it is much more efficient. I we really going to believe that the body will only use the dieatary aminos we ingest as substrate? I look at food as buffers between muscle catabolism. Your 3 buffers are protein carbs and fat. Once protein needs are met for synthesis purposes (maintiaining current muscle if dieting) then carbohydrates will be more protein sparing than additional protein. So I still like carbs for a few reasons…

      1. better energy production while working out. Even with only a protein source (and I have tried this) i still feel like shit

      2. more protection against muscle catabolism. I’m not arguing that I’m shutting down fat burning for awhile with insulin release but that’s a risk I would be willing to take to maintain my hard earned muscle.

      Gene I’m sorry I don’t have studies to post at this time. I’m in the middle of preparing a speech for chem seminar and it’s 3 a.m.. you understand lol.

      Peace

      #94790

      dawza
      Member

      Excellent study, Gene- makes me rethink my stance on getting an insulin spike before cardio when trying to cut down. I found this part of the conclusion to be very relevent to this topic:

      Note: WMP= Whole milk protein, CPL= alpha-lactalbumin-enriched whey protein, Pox= protein oxidation

      Glc= glucose

      Interestingly, CPL-fed rats gained more weight but fixed most of this extra weight in their lean tissues, whereas Glc-fed and WMP-fed rats gained mainly fat. This result suggests that increasing the rate of lipid oxidation during and after exercise is not, per se, a sufficient mechanism to favor the selective mobilization of adipose reserves in the long term. Clearly, compensatory mechanisms must have developed away from the exercise to induce tiny modifications in the fate of the nutrients ingested with the night meal that allowed the WMP-fed rats to recover during the night the excess lipids used during exercise. The major difference in the metabolic response to CPL and WMP was the time course of utilization of the amino acids brought by the meal. The higher solubility of the CPL meal allowed Pox to increase steadily during exercise, whereas Pox leveled in the WMP-fed rats. This observation indicates that the delivery of amino acids by the gut was less reduced in the CPL-fed than in the WMP-fed rats. As a result, the CPL-fed rats ended the exercise with a rate of Pox about two times higher than the rate in the WMP-fed ones. In addition, this high Pox rate continued after the completion of exercise, whereas by only 2 h after the termination of exercise, Pox increased again in the WMP-fed rats. All together, these data indicate that amino acid availability was larger during and early after exercise in the CPL-fed rats. It is thus tempting to hypothesize that this kinetic played in favor of a better fixation of the exogenous amino acids in muscles and LBM in the CPL-fed rats, in particular because more amino acids were available immediately after exercise, i.e., at a critical time to maximally enhance the processes of restoration of proteins degraded during exercise (17, 21, 22).

      In conclusion, this study revealed that ingestion of a protein meal before exercise improved lipid oxidation but that this phenomenon was not as sufficient to reduce adiposity in the long term as it was in the CPL rats. Other mechanisms must thus be looked at to understand the specific effect of the CPL protein in this study. The data suggest that the kinetic of delivery of dietary amino acids by the digestive tract played a critical role, but the role played by the amino acid composition of CPL also deserves further investigation.

      ————————————————————————————————————————–

      This piece in the intro is also applicable:

      Lipid oxidation is most enhanced when exercise is performed in the postabsorptive state, i.e., when plasma insulin concentration and glycogen stores are low, but this may also promote the release of glucocorticoids to synthesize glucose from amino acids and thus induce muscle protein catabolism. A preexercise carbohydrate meal can be given before exercise to sustain a high workload of long duration, whereas during exercise, periodic intakes of glucose are able to delay fatigue, particularly nervous fatigue, by helping to maintain circulating blood glucose levels (19). When a carbohydrate meal is given before exercise, it can prevent protein catabolism, but a possible adverse effect is related to the glucose-induced stimulation of insulin secretion that may reduce both glycogen and lipid release and utilization as oxidative substrates (4, 6, 12, 15) and thus impair the capacity to perform the exercise as well as the capacity of exercise to reduce fat mass.

      A means of preventing catabolism of endogenous protein during exercise while maintaining high endogenous utilization of lipid is to provide a dietary source of amino acids. This kind of meal has the advantage of producing little insulin and thus no impairment of fat mobilization, while having the potential to bring exogenous substrates to active muscles under the form of branched-chain amino acids and glucose produced through the gluconeogenic pathway (2, 5). The production of glucose from exogenous protein should have a sparing effect on endogenous protein catabolism observed in such situations when exercise is performed during an energy deficit (11, 13). In this case, the ability of the protein source to deliver amino acids rapidly into the blood may be critical to increase amino acid availability.

      ————————————————————————————————————————

      Therefore, to answer nightop’s question- it apears that a fast-digesting protein would indeed be superior in this situation in regard to sparing/increasing lean mass and keeping lipolysis elevated.

      Interestingly, the vastus lateralis was largest in the CPL rats, possibly suggesting incorporation of the AA into muscle.

      This I found particularly interesting, as it shows how much more rapidly the AA from CPL was available for (presumably) gluconeogenisis . . .

      “The relative Pox participation to energy expenditure during exercise was significantly higher in the CPL group (8.7%) than in all of the other groups (P < 0.05), and higher in the WMP (6.4%) group than in the fasted (3.6%) or glucose (2.0%)-fed groups (P < 0.05). . . During the 2-h recovery period, however, the participation of Pox to whole body energy peaked up to 23.3% of whole body energy expenditure in the CPL group and to only 15.5% in the WMP group (P < 0.05). In addition, the maximum of this rise occurred early after exercise (30 min) in the CPL group and much later (150 min) in the WMP group. ”

      . . . while preserving lipolysis:

      ” . . . significant decrease in plasma glycerol concentration was observed between the ingestion of the meal and the onset of exercise in the Glc group, indicating that the glucose-enriched meal promoted a rapid inhibition of lipolysis. Such a phenomenon was not observed in the groups fed the WMP or CPL meals”

      Glycogen use was also lower among the protein-fed rats compared to the glucose-fed ones; however, glycogen content (liver) was also higher for fasted? and glucose-fed rats. Perhaps this had to do with the procedure of the study, where the researchers fed the rats the meals they would consume 1-hr pre-exercise for 1 week:

      “During the 3rd wk, the rats were divided into four groups according to the kind of meal they received 1 h before the onset of exercise: the first (fasted) group did not receive any meal, the second (Glc) group received a glucose-enriched meal, the third group (WMP) received a whole milk protein-enriched meal, and the fourth group (CPL) received an -lactalbumin-enriched meal. These meals amounted to 3 g (20 kJ; see Table 1) and thus reduced food restriction to 85% of the ad libitum food intake. This feeding procedure was maintained until the end of the study”

      I would really like to look further into this when I have time, particularly at human studies, if there are any. Here is a list of references in case anyone else is interested and has time:

      1. Ballor, DL, Katch VL, Becque MD, and Marks CR. Resistance weight training during caloric restriction enhances lean body weight maintenance. Am J Clin Nutr 47: 19-25, 1988[Abstract].

      2. Bowtell, JL, Leese GP, Smith K, Watt PW, Nevill A, Rooyackers O, Wagenmakers AJ, and Rennie MJ. Modulation of whole body protein metabolism, during and after exercise, by variation of dietary protein. J Appl Physiol 85: 1744-1752, 1998[Abstract/Free Full Text].

      3. Burvin, R, Zloczower M, and Karniely E. Double-vein jugular/inferior vena cava clamp technique for long term in vivo studies in rats. Physiol Behav 63: 511-515, 1998[ISI][Medline].

      4. Costill, DL. Carbohydrate nutrition before, during, and after exercise. Fed Proc 44: 364-368, 1985[ISI][Medline].

      5. Dohm, GL, Beeker RT, Israel RG, and Tapscott EB. Metabolic responses to exercise after fasting. J Appl Physiol 61: 1363-1368, 1986[ISI][Medline].

      6. El-Sayed, MS, MacLaren D, and Rattu AJ. Exogenous carbohydrate utilisation: effects on metabolism and exercise performance. Comp Biochem Physiol 118: 789-803, 1997[ISI].

      7. Even, PC, Perrier E, Aucouturier JL, and Nicolaïdis S. Utilisation of the method of Kalman filtering for performing the on-line computation of background metabolism in the free-moving, free-feeding rat. Physiol Behav 49: 177-187, 1991[ISI][Medline].

      8. Even, PC, Mokhtarian A, and Pelé A. Practical aspects of indirect calorimetry in laboratory rats. Neurosci Biobehav Rev 18: 435-447, 1994[ISI][Medline].

      9. Even, PC, Rieth N, Roseau S, and Larue Achagiotis C. Substrate oxidation during exercise in the rat cannot fully account for training-induced changes in macronutrients selection. Metabolism 47: 777-782, 1998[ISI][Medline].

      10. Even, PC, Rolland V, Roseau S, Bouthegourd JC, and Tomé D. Prediction of basal metabolism from organ size in the rat: relationship to strain, feeding, age, and obesity. Am J Physiol Regul Integr Comp Physiol 280: R1887-R1896, 2001[Abstract/Free Full Text].

      11. Halseth, AE, Flakoll PJ, Reed EK, Messina AB, Krishna MG, Lacy DB, Williams PE, and Wasserman DH. Effect of physical activity and fasting on gut and liver proteolysis in the dog. Am J Physiol Endocrinol Metab 273: E1073-E1082, 1997[Abstract/Free Full Text].

      12. Horowitz, JF, Mora-Rodriguez R, Byerkey LO, and Coyle EF. Lipolytic suppression following carbohydrate ingestion limits fat oxidation during exercise. Am J Physiol Endocrinol Metab 273: E768-E775, 1997[Abstract/Free Full Text].

      13. Kasperek, GJ, Conway GR, Krayeski DS, and Lohne JJ. A reexamination of the effect of exercise on rate of muscle protein degradation. Am J Physiol Endocrinol Metab 263: E1144-E1150, 1992.

      14. Katzeff, HL, Ojamaa KM, and Klein I. The effects of long-term aerobic exercise and energy restriction on protein synthesis. Metabolism 44: 188-192, 1995[ISI][Medline].

      15. Levine, L, Evans WJ, Cadarette BS, Fisher EC, and Bullen BA. Fructose and glucose ingestion and muscle glycogen use during submaximal exercise. J Appl Physiol 55: 1767-1771, 1983[ISI][Medline].

      16. Lo, S, Russell JC, and Taylor AW. Determination of glycogen in small tissue samples. J Appl Physiol 28: 234-236, 1970[ISI][Medline].

      17. Rasmussen, BB, Tipton KD, Miller SL, Wolf SE, and Wolfe RR. An oral essential amino acid-carbohydrate supplement enhances muscle protein anabolism after resistance exercise. J Appl Physiol 88: 386-392, 2000[Abstract/Free Full Text].

      18. Sharp, PE, and La Regina MC. The Laboratory RatA Volume in the Laboratory Animal Pocket Reference Series. Boca Raton, FL: CRC, 1998.

      19. Sherman, M. Metabolism of sugars and physical performance. Am J Clin Nutr 62, Suppl: 228S-241S, 1995[Abstract].

      20. Shimomura, Y, Murakami T, Nakai N, Nagasaki M, Obayashi M, Li Z, Xu M, Sato Y, Kato T, Shimomura N, Fujitsuka N, Tanaka K, and Sato M. Suppression of glycogen consumption during acute exercise by dietary branched-chain amino acids in rats. J Nutr Sci Vitaminol 46: 71-77, 2000[ISI][Medline].

      21. Tipton, KD, Ferrando AA, Phillips DD, Doyle D, JR, and Wolfe RR. Postexercise net protein synthesis in human muscle from orally administered amino acids. Am J Physiol Endocrinol Metab 276: E628-E634, 1999[Abstract/Free Full Text].

      22. Tipton, KD, Rasmussen BB, Miller SL, Wolf SE, Owens-Stovall SK, Petrini BE, and Wolfe RR. Timing of amino acid-carbohydrate ingestion alters anabolic response of muscle to resistance exercise. Am J Physiol Endocrinol Metab 281: E197-E206, 2001[Abstract/Free Full Text].

      #94796

      shpongled
      Member

      Ok Gene I see your point however.  However the body is a very “smart animal” so to speak.  I would think that if it raised it’s rates of amino acid oxidation it would not only draw from the amino “pool” but it would also draw from muscle tissue… the body likes to use multiple sources at once… it is much more efficient.  I we really going to believe that the body will only use the dieatary aminos we ingest as substrate?  I look at food as buffers between muscle catabolism.  Your 3 buffers are protein carbs and fat.  Once protein needs are met for synthesis purposes (maintiaining current muscle if dieting) then carbohydrates will be more protein sparing than additional protein.  So I still like carbs for a few reasons…

      1. better energy production while working out.  Even with only a protein source (and I have tried this) i still feel like shit

      2. more protection against muscle catabolism.  I’m not arguing that I’m shutting down fat burning for awhile with insulin release but that’s a risk I would be willing to take to maintain my hard earned muscle.

      Gene I’m sorry I don’t have studies to post at this time.  I’m in the middle of preparing a speech for chem seminar and it’s 3 a.m.. you understand lol.

      Peace

      I agree here. My issue on cardio is, shouldn’t be done in fasted state or protein only-state, but I don’t think you should take in extra cals before/after either as that would defeat the purpose. I would do it 2-3 hours after a meal, I think that would avoid catabolism, but I think having some carbs in there would serve to avoid catabolism as well – your body never just uses one source, so if you do it in the morning with just protein I would think you’d have a chance for catabolism as well… and I don’t see an advantage. And I’d still go with a post WO carb/protein shake but I don’t see a reason to add more cals in there than you would normally have. Hope this made sense, I was kind of all over the place and I’m really tired.

      David

      #94804

      Tkarrde
      Member

      I would do it 2-3 hours after a meal, I think that would avoid catabolism, but I think having some carbs in there would serve to avoid catabolism as well – your body never just uses one source, so if you do it in the morning with just protein I would think you’d have a chance for catabolism as well… and I don’t see an advantage. And I’d still go with a post WO carb/protein shake but I don’t see a reason to add more cals in there than you would normally have.

      This is essentially my conclusion as well.

      Cardio should be performed in a “semi-fasted” state, with proper post-workout nutrition being adhered to within 1hr after having completed exercise.

      If you like performing it in the morning, do so. If you prefer to eat breakfast at 8:00a.m. and perform cardio at 11:00a.m., do so.

      The stress of analyzing this issue is more catabolic than is simply doing what best suits your schedule and disposition.

      #94829

      Gene
      Member

      [i][b]Str8flexed[/b][/i]

      I would think that if it raised it’s rates of amino acid oxidation it would not only draw from the amino “pool” but it would also draw from muscle tissue… the body likes to use multiple sources at once… it is much more efficient.

      The body is constantly using both pools, no matter the activity level. In our context, it doesn’t matter. If we use muscle protein, the available amino acids will be driven back into the muscles. If there is less degradation, then the available amino acids will be deaminated in the liver, and chemically converted either to pyruvic acid or acetyl CoA, or it may enter the Krebs cycle for substrate-level phosphorylation at various stages depending upon which amino acid was deaminated. This you should know better than me. So, in short, it makes little difference, so long as amino acids are available. This is analogous to taking money from your dad and giving it to your mom. The wealth of the family hasn’t changed.

      [i][b]shpongled[/b][/i]

      your body never just uses one source, so if you do it in the morning with just protein I would think you’d have a chance for catabolism as well… and I don’t see an advantage

      What I find more interesting is that everyone is suggesting cardio in the post-absorptive state, but reluctant to concede to a protein-only after a fast, which is simply an extended post-absorptive state, and ideally so — fat-burning is at a maximum, protein breakdown is at normal levels (remember, I beat this issue to death in my Meal Frequency thread; protein breakdown will not increase until after 12 hours of fasting, which is the transition into the 3rd stage of starvation), plus amino acids are available — and anything less simply serves to provide glucose as fuel (whether through glycogen stores, or carb intake) and reduce lipid oxidation.

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