• How Exactly Does Total Hpta "shutdown" Occur?

    Home Forums Chemically Correct Anabolic Steroids, Prohormones & Other Performance Enhancers How Exactly Does Total Hpta "shutdown" Occur?

    This topic contains 0 replies, has 1 voice, and was last updated by  Eve 5 months ago.

    Viewing 20 posts - 1 through 20 (of 35 total)
    • Author
      Posts
    • #457210

      RepubCarrier
      Member

      that’s accurate…. who’ Ross?

      #457223

      swifto
      Member

      A AS user with many controversial ideas.

      One of the more intresting ones was how to limit HPTA suppression. As we can see how different AS act…Differently by activating different receptors we can limit/control suppression/shutdown. This would in turn make recovery easier and gains easier to attain post cycle.

      An example cycle would be:

      wk 1-8 Test Prop 75mg/ED

      wk 1-10 Tbol 60mg/ED

      wk 1-12 Primo 600mg/wk.

      From week 1-8 total HPTA shutdown occurs, then after discontinueing Test Prop, the activation of estrogen receptors in the Hypothalamus is removed and only androgen actiavtion will be evident. As Tbol/Primo already lack an progestenic component. Therefore, he states, the Pituitary will begin hormone output and Testosetrone levels will begin to resume production, though somewhat suppressed. This will give a steroid user an advanatge when entering PCT etc…

      #457219

      rast4man
      Member

      To keep it simple, you pretty much have the grasp on the HPTA shutdown. Just think of it on a Testosterone based level; adding synthetic Test, will inevitably signal our HPTA that there is no need to produce our naturally occuring Test, hence the “shutdown”. That is why it’s imperative to get a proper PCT in order to get the HPTA back and naturally producing the body’s own natural Test production.

      I tried the non-PCT route prior to the cycle I’m on now, and I must say it was interesting to say the least. I’m going with a full PCT this time so I can compare results and see where I’m at at the end of the cycle.

      #457197

      w_llewellyn
      Member

      I think “shutdown” is an improper term, and implies there is some threshold that if you reach, some “total” shutdown occurs, and before it you are much safer. It is all about degrees of suppression, although admittedly you can take enough steroids for long enough to almost nil your andorgen output.

      I have never been in favor of attempting to restore your natural balance of hormones at the sime time as trying to find the right dose of a steroid that will allow muscle retention and prevent any androgen defecit without effecting your testosterone production. It is a situation of trying to have your cake and eat it too. It doesn’t work, IMO.

      #457204

      Benson
      Member

      For example, “shutdown” via uses Testosterone is caused by too many estrogen/androgen receptors becoming activated, therefore HPTA “shutdown” occursand the pituitary stops hormone output. Not to mention the negative feedback loop…

      This is essentially correct. Both elevated T and E will signal the hypothalmus to reduce endogenous androgen production in men…I am sure someone here knows the answer but is it correct that non-aromatizing compounds will cause less shutdown because E levels do not rise?

      #457195

      omnibus
      Member

      I am sure someone here knows the answer but is it correct that non-aromatizing compounds will cause less shutdown because E levels do not rise?

      The concensus seems to be that Tren and Deca shut you down much harder than testosterone for example, so it doesn’t seem to be true in all cases.

      #457198

      w_llewellyn
      Member

      The concensus seems to be that Tren and Deca shut you down much harder than testosterone for example, so it doesn’t seem to be true in all cases.

      Progestational activity also causes inhibition, both at the hypothalamus and likely at the testes directly.

      #457206

      avantgarde
      Member

      So using 100 mg test 2-3 after the other androgens have cleared the system is pointless ? I would think you could get some recovery, albeit not at “full speed” ?

      I guess one could use HCG during these 2-3 weeks instead, would that be a better option ?

      I hate crashing and do not mind prolonging -full-recovery for a few weeks if it means I can have a smoother transition.

      Holding mass is doable on low-normal testosterone IMO. However holding mass when you have castrate levels is damn near impossible, not to mention zero libido and depression to boot.

      #457224

      swifto
      Member

      I think “shutdown” is an improper term, and implies there is some threshold that if you reach, some “total” shutdown occurs, and before it you are much safer. It is all about degrees of suppression, although admittedly you can take enough steroids for long enough to almost nil your andorgen output.

      I have never been in favor of attempting to restore your natural balance of hormones at the sime time as trying to find the right dose of a steroid that will allow muscle retention and prevent any androgen defecit without effecting your testosterone production. It is a situation of trying to have your cake and eat it too. It doesn’t work, IMO.

      So you dont think its possible to restore ANY hormone output after discontinueing suppressive androgens, such as Testosterone, Tren, Deca, whilst still using less suppressive androgens, like Var, Primo.

      Is it also true the Pituitary, if not shutdown, can not be permanently suppressed from suppression only..If you follow. There will be no long term health effects if the Pituitary is mearly suppressed, not shutdown?

      #457225

      swifto
      Member

      This is essentially correct. Both elevated T and E will signal the hypothalmus to reduce endogenous androgen production in men…I am sure someone here knows the answer but is it correct that non-aromatizing compounds will cause less shutdown because E levels do not rise?

      This is what I have been led to believe.

      Less suppressive androgens only act on certain receptors. Var lasks any estrogenic, progestenic component, therefore can only activate a number of androgenic receptors. Enough to casue “shutdown”…Well…Who knows? I guess thats another question.

      #457207

      avantgarde
      Member

      Who knows ? I do . Blood worked showed essentially no test on 80 mg/day of Var.

      15 mg ED has been show to supress T 30% according to a study.

      Just another myth.

      If it (androgen) binds to the AR – negative feedback and HPTA sup.

      The question is : if you are already shutdown -end of cycle. Can you use a moderate dose and still recover T albeit more slowly ?

      #457199

      w_llewellyn
      Member

      So you dont think its possible to restore ANY hormone output after discontinueing suppressive androgens, such as Testosterone, Tren, Deca, whilst still using less suppressive androgens, like Var, Primo.

      No, it would seem logically possible, although Anavar and Primobolan are both more suppressive than people think. The problem is, the PCT window is when you are trying to restore your natural balance, and throwing things like AI’s, reductase inhibitors, low doses of this or that, etc. IMO complicate things. If some people can do it and it works, defintiely good to hear..

      [quote]Is it also true the Pituitary, if not shutdown, can not be permanently suppressed from suppression only..If you follow. There will be no long term health effects if the Pituitary is mearly suppressed, not shutdown?

      No, I don’t think it is this simple. Your pituitary glad is the “master endocrine gland” in the body. It controls many other things than testosterone, and isn’t going to atrophy like your testes do because LH levels are low. It is more an issue of your body, after long periods of acquired hypogonadism, having a problem recognizing its old hormonal balance. Often even after long periods away from steroids, abusers will have testosterone levels on the low end of the spectrum, even though considered normal clinically. This isn’t because the pituitary is atrophied or “smaller”, but because it thinks this state is normal. This isn’t always the case, of course, but illustrates how complicated the issue of recovery can be. I think we should stop focusing on this “shutdown” thing so much; it is just symmantics. Just focus on NOT putting yourself in a place where you have interfered with your natural hormonal balance for too long a period of time.

      #457200

      w_llewellyn
      Member

      So using 100 mg test 2-3 after the other androgens have cleared the system is pointless ? I would think you could get some recovery, albeit not at “full speed” ?

      I guess one could use HCG during these 2-3 weeks instead, would that be a better option ?

      I hate crashing and do not mind prolonging -full-recovery for a few weeks if it means I can have a smoother transition.

      Holding mass is doable on low-normal testosterone IMO. However holding mass when you have castrate levels is damn near impossible, not to mention zero libido and depression to boot.

      I see what you are saying. I think the focus should be a moderate cycle and a strong PCT course (HCG/CLOM/NOLV), or perhaps trying to maintain testicular volume with very low doses of HCG during. This way you are not faced with castrate levels for a long PCT window.

      If going this other route, I would prob recommend doing low dose transdermal. The injectables have too sharp a peak at 24-48 hours. You aren’t going to get that balanced low level you are looking for. Each 100mg shot will result in a short window of gonadotropin suppression.

      #457205

      Benson
      Member

      The question is : if you are already shutdown -end of cycle. Can you use a moderate dose and still recover T albeit more slowly ?

      [i]In theory[/i], you should be able to taper your exogenous androgen intake, encourage endogenous production with a SERM or, better yet, HCG and avoid the crash altogether…in theory…

      #457208

      avantgarde
      Member

      Bill : so how bout something like this

      7-10 days – 5 grams Androgel ED

      7-10 days – 2,5 grams Androgel ED

      7-10 days – 1,25 gram Androgel ED

      I take it HCG should be used prior to this as both at the same time would mean high T levels and no recovery ?

      I´m thinking

      8 weeks of testosterone @ 500 mg (2 inj/week, frontload with double dose to quickly get to steady state levels).

      2 weeks – the test from previous weeks clears, 10 days of HCG (should be clear after the 4 remaining days of week 2).

      3-4 weeks – Androgel as above + SERM (nolva).

      3-4 weeks – SERM

      I read your comment on AI´s and lipids but I would think a moderate dose of Aromasin – 6,25 mg ED, would be ok to control estrogen on cycle ?

      EDIT : Androgel raise DHT and Estrogen more compared to injections – this may be problematic.

      I guess one could have small injections of test instead and avoid the pesky pharmacokinetics of having one 100 mg shot.

      I´m thinking 25 mg EOD should do the trick (1/10 ml standard 250 mg/ml AMP) with a slin pin for accuracy – may an option ?

      #457202

      Big EG
      Member

      . Just focus on NOT putting yourself in a place where you have interfered with your natural hormonal balance for too long a period of time.

      ….And how long would that be? I’ve heard that the anterior pituitary become more “sensitized” to GHRH in the first two weeks of a cycle since less of it is generated by the hypothalamus. Would this set the system for aggressive recovery was the cycle abruptly ended at that point?

      #457203

      Big EG
      Member

      …not GHRH…..GnRH.

      #457226

      BIGGUNS101
      Member

      I see what you are saying. I think the focus should be a moderate cycle and a strong PCT course (HCG/CLOM/NOLV), or perhaps trying to maintain testicular volume with very low doses of HCG during. This way you are not faced with castrate levels for a long PCT window.

      If going this other route, I would prob recommend doing low dose transdermal. The injectables have too sharp a peak at 24-48 hours. You aren’t going to get that balanced low level you are looking for. Each 100mg shot will result in a short window of gonadotropin suppression.

      What do you consider a very low dose of HCG, also will this dosage work for someone on HRT.

      #457196

      omnibus
      Member

      What do you consider a very low dose of HCG, also will this dosage work for someone on HRT.

      In case you haven’t seen this:

      [quote] [font=”Verdana”]Coviello AD, Matsumoto AM, Bremner WJ, et al. Low-dose human chorionic gonadotropin maintains intratesticular testosterone in normal men with testosterone-induced gonadotropin suppression. [b]J Clin Endocrinol Metab[/b]. 2005;90(5):2595-602.

      ABSTRACT

      In previous studies of testicular biopsy tissue from healthy men, intratesticular testosterone (ITT) has been shown to be much higher than serum testosterone (T), suggesting that high ITT is needed relative to serum T for normal spermatogenesis in men. However, the quantitative relationship between ITT and spermatogenesis is not known. To begin to address this issue experimentally, [b]we determined the dose-response relationship between human chorionic gonadotropin (hCG) and ITT to ascertain the minimum dose needed to maintain ITT in the normal range.[/b] Twenty-nine men with normal reproductive physiology were randomized to receive 200 mg T enanthate weekly in combination with either saline placebo or [b]125, 250, or 500 IU hCG every other day for 3 wk[/b]. ITT was assessed in testicular fluid obtained by percutaneous fine needle aspiration at baseline and at the end of treatment. Baseline serum T (14.1 nmol/liter) was 1.2% of ITT (1174 nmol/liter). LH and FSH were profoundly suppressed to 5% and 3% of baseline, respectively, and ITT was suppressed by 94% (1234 to 72 nmol/liter) in the T enanthate/placebo group. ITT increased linearly with increasing hCG dose (P < 0.001).[b] Posttreatment ITT was 25% less than baseline in the 125 IU hCG group, 7% less than baseline in the 250 IU hCG group, and 26% greater than baseline in the 500 IU hCG group.[/b] These results demonstrate that relatively low dose hCG maintains ITT within the normal range in healthy men with gonadotropin suppression. Extensions of this study will allow determination of the ITT concentration threshold required to maintain spermatogenesis in man.[/font]

      #457227

      BIGGUNS101
      Member

      In case you haven’t seen this:

      No I havent seen it, thank you. Im going to try hcg at lower dosage eod instead of every 5th day. I was going to make a thread last week about how I felt I was getting acne after my shots of HCG. Wasnt sure if it was effecting me enough to cause it.

    Viewing 20 posts - 1 through 20 (of 35 total)

    You must be logged in to reply to this topic.

    Comments are currently closed.