• hedonistic imperative, some good info

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    • #394229

      Abolitionist
      Member

      Personally, I find Pearce’s exposition diletantish, to put it nicely.  His position, that pain = suffering and that both are merely evolutionary left-overs that have no place in our “post-darwinian” age is, in my opinion, entriely untenable.  In vulgar terms, pleasure and happiness/fulfillment are two very different thigns.  While the former may be reliably achieved through drugs (and possibly genetic manipulation somewhere down the line) — think heroin high — that the latter can be achieved through either of those means is certainly not supported empirically — think heroin addict.  Pearce strikes me as being too myopic and, at least for my tastes, too arogant for having a theory that is utterly devoid of either empirical validation or rational coherency.

      Pearce does not maintain that getting high is the same thing as abolishing suffering.

      Can happiness/fulfillment be brought about sustainably through biotechnology?

      To answer this question we must understand the root of suffering – genetic design that served the inclusive fitness of our genes rather than our hedonic maximization.

      Can Abolitionists claim to have an example of a particular approach that proves that reliable happiness can be attained through technology?

      Unfortunately, I don’t think society (at present) would allow for such an experiment or even the development of technologies with this purpose in mind. Pearce simply provides examples of promising technologies/approaches and counters the multi-faceted notion that we will never be able to eliminate suffering.

      In truth, time will tell. It really is up to us to choose whether or not we will attempt to solve the problem of suffering succinctly and scientifically.

      Abolitionists (including Pearce) would like to promote the elimination of suffering (using science) as a core value and directive for all humankind.

      One of the most important examples Pearce describes (IMO) is wireheading – the direct electrical stimulation of the brain;

      http://www.wireheading.com

      Stimulating specific points on the brain never ceases to produce pleasure beyond description, there is no tolerance to the stimuli. It nevers fails to feel meaningful, euphoric, just all out wonderful.

      #394319

      cosmos
      Member

      This type of therad belongs in the PSM forum, but …

      This thread probably should continue in the PSM forum.

      #394488

      Par Deus
      Member

      Would we react the same to high levels of dopamine if it was all we knew? I believe that the solution is in the state of mind which infrequent high doses of dopamine bring and not the dopamine itself.

      Likewise with serotonin.

      Happiness and dominance is all about the burst in activity.

      Zombie-ism and subordination is all about steady levels, especially with serotonin.

      #394546

      Abolitionist
      Member

      [quote name=’NomadicHand’ date=’Nov 11 2004, 03:15 PM’] Would we react the same to high levels of dopamine if it was all we knew? I believe that the solution is in the state of mind which infrequent high doses of dopamine bring and not the dopamine itself.

      Likewise with serotonin.

      Happiness and dominance is all about the burst in activity.

      Zombie-ism and subordination is all about steady levels, especially with serotonin.

      Would steady (high) levels of dopamine produce a steady enhanced hedonic state if dopamine receptor down-regulation did not occur?

      No doubt there are other mechanisms regulating dopaminergic function than just the dopamine receptors.

      Suffering is a complicated problem that will require greater knowledge of the brain than we currently posses before a realistic strategy can be formulated.

      Again, Pearce’s ideas are not roadmaps but fuel for thought and research.

      My apologizes if I am over-emphasizing the obvious

      #416563

      LivinLarger
      Member

      Would steady (high) levels of dopamine produce a steady enhanced hedonic state if dopamine receptor down-regulation did not occur?

      From one of my favorite movies IROBOT…..

      “that, detective…….is the right question”

      “program terminated”

      #416704

      Par Deus
      Member

      The negative feedback mechanisms would go beyond down regulation of the specific receptor, but even assuming nothing downregulated, you have to wonder what the conscious mind would make of it.

      Or maybe it would dictate the conscious mind.

      We still know fuck all about this stuff.

      #416705

      Par Deus
      Member

      The negative feedback mechanisms would go beyond down regulation of the specific receptor, but even assuming nothing downregulated, you have to wonder what the conscious mind would make of it.

      Or maybe it would dictate the conscious mind.

      We still know fuck all about this stuff.

      #416867

      JohnMK
      Member

      I realize this is getting a bit too specific for this forum, but do you believe there is any long-term way to enhance cognition at all in those born with genes that favor a certain balance of neurotransmitter activity (I presume this is most if not all of us). I am in particular benefitted by boosting dopamine activity (and to a lesser extent, nerepinephrine). I’m investigating (and experimenting with, under the care of a doctor) the use of dextroamphetamine, selegiline, methylphenidate, etc., as chemicals to use on a short-term and/or long-term basis.

      #416868

      JohnMK
      Member

      I realize this is getting a bit too specific for this forum, but do you believe there is any long-term way to enhance cognition at all in those born with genes that favor a certain balance of neurotransmitter activity (I presume this is most if not all of us). I am in particular benefitted by boosting dopamine activity (and to a lesser extent, nerepinephrine). I’m investigating (and experimenting with, under the care of a doctor) the use of dextroamphetamine, selegiline, methylphenidate, etc., as chemicals to use on a short-term and/or long-term basis.

      #416869

      JohnMK
      Member

      I realize this is getting a bit too specific for this forum, but do you believe there is any long-term way to enhance cognition at all in those born with genes that favor a certain balance of neurotransmitter activity (I presume this is most if not all of us). I am in particular benefitted by boosting dopamine activity (and to a lesser extent, nerepinephrine). I’m investigating (and experimenting with, under the care of a doctor) the use of dextroamphetamine, selegiline, methylphenidate, etc., as chemicals to use on a short-term and/or long-term basis.

      #417057

      cosmos
      Member

      The negative feedback mechanisms would go beyond down regulation of the specific receptor, but even assuming nothing downregulated, you have to wonder what the conscious mind would make of it.

      Or maybe it would dictate the conscious mind.

      We still know fuck all about this stuff.

      [right][snapback]231291[/snapback][/right]

      I wouldn’t know, but if it is an open question then I think it’s worth pursuing.

      [quote name=’Abolitionist’]Again, Pearce’s ideas are not roadmaps but fuel for thought and research.

      It’s been a few months since I made my initial posts in this thread. I may have been overly presumptuous, if we collectively “know fuck all about this stuff” then individually I know far less than that. Although I would still like to read comments from others less lay than I, on this matter.

      #417058

      cosmos
      Member

      The negative feedback mechanisms would go beyond down regulation of the specific receptor, but even assuming nothing downregulated, you have to wonder what the conscious mind would make of it.

      Or maybe it would dictate the conscious mind.

      We still know fuck all about this stuff.

      [right][snapback]231291[/snapback][/right]

      I wouldn’t know, but if it is an open question then I think it’s worth pursuing.

      [quote name=’Abolitionist’]Again, Pearce’s ideas are not roadmaps but fuel for thought and research.

      It’s been a few months since I made my initial posts in this thread. I may have been overly presumptuous, if we collectively “know fuck all about this stuff” then individually I know far less than that. Although I would still like to read comments from others less lay than I, on this matter.

      #417059

      cosmos
      Member

      The negative feedback mechanisms would go beyond down regulation of the specific receptor, but even assuming nothing downregulated, you have to wonder what the conscious mind would make of it.

      Or maybe it would dictate the conscious mind.

      We still know fuck all about this stuff.

      [right][snapback]231291[/snapback][/right]

      I wouldn’t know, but if it is an open question then I think it’s worth pursuing.

      [quote name=’Abolitionist’]Again, Pearce’s ideas are not roadmaps but fuel for thought and research.

      It’s been a few months since I made my initial posts in this thread. I may have been overly presumptuous, if we collectively “know fuck all about this stuff” then individually I know far less than that. Although I would still like to read comments from others less lay than I, on this matter.

      #417982

      sunkist
      Member

      I realize this is getting a bit too specific for this forum, but do you believe there is any long-term way to enhance cognition at all in those born with genes that favor a certain balance of neurotransmitter activity (I presume this is most if not all of us). I am in particular benefitted by boosting dopamine activity (and to a lesser extent, nerepinephrine). I’m investigating (and experimenting with, under the care of a doctor) the use of dextroamphetamine, selegiline, methylphenidate, etc., as chemicals to use on a short-term and/or long-term basis.

      [right][snapback]231372[/snapback][/right]

      This kinda gets back to Braverman’s philosophy which has some merit In my opinion. I think it has been discussed more in another area here. I am a GABA, so as I experimented with the herbals and Parkinson’s meds and such in the Dopamine realm, I found it was counter productive. I became almost zombie like, and yet very anxious. I rebalanced the imputs a couple of weeks ago, and I am getting back to normal. The connection with dopamine and antiaging is now one of my fringe focuses. I intend to seek balance as I should have from the beginning. Permanently enhanced dopamine is very untoward for me.

      #435997

      Fightsport01
      Member

      very very interesting post. WOW blows my mind. Iv been reading Hedweb on and off and never fully understood daves motivational drive or if hes an addict recovering, or neuroscientist at best? Where does he get this information which some of it is very unrealistic for now, but down the road? I recently found out about spect scanning done at amenclinc, which I never new such a thing can be done for at least decade or 2 from now, but this neuroscientist can observe an mri type scan (SPECT) view the brain , and make diagnosis and medication regiments to the client. Possibly without even much or any information from the patient.

      I havent read into it , but from what I see is a brain normal, vs a brain with ADD, alcoholism, etc. and colors in different areas. UNKNOWN if he looking at clusters of neurons or cells or what.

      Back to hedweb. the dopamine thing is what inerests me. For years before i got into all this, seratonin was like my belief , like if you take zoloft and paxil, you will feel like a million dollars, etc. The least thing i wanted was dopamine or NE due to anxiety, but I leaned that Dopamine actually in ADD TYPE 2 or 5 is NOT being released properly from the Mesolimbic area or Nucleus Accumbens. Basically Amen states the Prefrontal cortex is not receiving such dopamine . yet a build up of DA is stagnant or whatever you like to word it in the limbic area.

      Now I thought the opposite, where DA was not being released because there was not much Neurotransmitter in the limbic system until you administered amphetamine type drugs. I may be wrong or the information may be a bit wrong but D2 receptor is the main DA receptor i beileve, along with d1, d2, d3, d4 and d5. What receptor is responsible for the amphetamine reward? It may be more complicated that this but if someone can shed lite on this, please do.

      #435998

      LivinLarger
      Member

      seratonin was like my belief , like if you take zoloft and paxil, you will feel like a million dollars, etc.

      Paxil made me feel like shit on a stick.

      #12120

      LivinLarger
      Member

      [url=”http://www.hedweb.com/hedethic/hedon1.htm”]http://www.hedweb.com/hedethic/hedon1.htm[/url]

      #351708

      Yes hedonism is interesting. I’m wondering whether you are fascinated by the science referred to or the possibility of “engineered paradise” so to speak.

      #351719

      ChiaHead
      Member

      Well, both I guess I just found it an interesting read. It’s odd to me that our bodies are able to produce on their own, chemicals that could lead to an artificial paradise. If I could find a way to somehow raise my dopamine levels permanately without receptor down regulation my world would be a happier place.

      I guess I am somewhat intrigued with dopamine in general with the pro- sexual, euphoric, happy place properties.

      It would be a kind of chemical matrix if you will

      Yes, I have issues but I do think about things like this often. If you are a happier person because you have modified your dopamine system would you really care if it was artificial or not?

      I do know I am not educated enough to even think of how to do such a thing or what it’s long term effects on ones mind would be but I can’t help but wonder anyways. I would probably fry my entire dopamine system and end up with parkinsons at 35.

      When I began to take Wellbutrin a few years ago I experienced this feeling for about 5 days. I am sure you know this but Wellbutrin raises dopamine and NE levels.

      These were 5 of the best days of my life. The world took on a whole new light everything felt better it is hard to explain.

      I felt very alert mentally, and has a seemingly endless supply of energy. I remember thinking that if this feeling lasts I am going to be a much more successful and happier person.

      This is when my curiosity began with the dopamine system and to a lesser extent nor adrenalin.

      #351730

      LivinLarger, I talked to someone on ImmInst a while back about Hedonism, he was associated with the hedonism website. I brought up possible problems with this engineered paradise, playing a role as devil’s advocate. He seemed to have reasonable resolutions to the problems I raised.

      I wouldn’t be placing bets at this point, but if you were to ask me I would think this has a good chance of coming to fruition some time in the future (in one form or another).

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